From Apparel to Accessories to AI: The Serge Denimes Story of Success in the Men's Jewelry Market

Ever wonder about the secret recipe that propels a brand’s swift transition from a clothing label to a global leader in men’s jewelry?

Brace yourself for some remarkable insights from Samuel Darcy, the dynamic Managing Director of Serge Denimes. Samuel unveils the enchanting journey of a brand that has ridden the wave of the booming men’s jewelry market, and succesfully pivoted from apparel to accessories. He lays bare the challenges and rewards of this strategic shift, with a sprinkle of anecdotes from his personal journey.

We then walk the tightrope between B2B and D2C, and Samuel makes a compelling case for the role of customer feedback in powering Serge Denim's success. Hear about their tech stack choices and how partnering with the right allies can skyrocket a brand's effectiveness and efficiency. Samuel shares Serge's data-led approach to inventory planning, and how that has had a transformative effect on sales growth.

The conversation takes an interesting turn towards the potential of artificial intelligence in asset creation and immersive customer experiences. We explore how AI can be the game-changer for making inroads into the world of e-commerce.

Buckle up for a riveting conversation filled with stimulating insights and behind-the-scenes stories from the world of men’s jewelry.

Subscribe to the Lightning 50 E-commerce Growth Hacking Podcast and get an instant notification when a new episode is released. We’re available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Hello, i'm Caroline and welcome to the Lightning 50 E-commerce growth hacking podcast. Today we're speaking to Samuel Darcy. He's the MD of Surge Daneem. But before we get into the conversation, a quick message from our sponsor. We have an exciting sponsor today PeopleVox, the warehouse management system helping ambitious E-commerce businesses scale.

Speaker 1: 0:29

If you have a growth mindset, like lounge underwear in the style or O-Poly, you know how important it is to have industry leading fulfilment and customer experience. Peoplevox offers proven increases in accuracy and transparency across your warehouse. Lightning Fast pick and pack methods based on industry best practice and a proven track record, partnering with some of the most successful brands of the E-commerce era All with simple setup and user training exactly what you need to take control of your warehouse and wow your customers With established integrations into Shopify, bright Pearl, inventory Planner and more. Just search PeopleVox and chat to their WMS experts today. And now on to the podcast. Founded in 2011 by fashion designer Oliver Proudlock of Maiden Chelsea fame, surge Denim is a premium global jewelry brand for the often overlooked men's market. Samuel will explain it much better than I will, i'm sure, and talk a lot about the growth rate and all the factors behind its success. So welcome to the podcast Samuel, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2: 1:32

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:33

So tell us a little bit about yourself and the wider business. How long have you been involved in Surge Denim and yeah, i believe you've been dealing with this from the ground up and tell me all about it.

Speaker 2: 1:47

Yeah, absolutely. So. I've been in the business now for seven years actually a seven year birthday my seven year birthday a couple of weeks ago So originally started out as a consultant. So previously, before Surge, i worked at an agency. I worked in sales and I was really curious about the delivery of all things marketing and I was kept on the sales side. And you have a sales side and then an account management side. So I was really curious about actually delivering the thing that we were talking about and selling.

Speaker 2: 2:14

And then Oli was a client and then one day he was going to leave us and it was an informal chat to discuss me coming in-house and just doing it full time internally. And so we did that. I previously had no experience, as we have a leap of faith on Oli's part and I think the business was an interesting position where they just removed a few members of staff from their head office. So it was a bit of a shake up. And then I came in, originally as a consultant and then very quickly moved into marketing full time and then managing director about three or four years ago, and then built the business from just Oli and me through to a global brand to where we are today.

Speaker 1: 2:53

Fantastic. So it was still a fairly new business up and coming, great name behind it, obviously, with founding the business. But what was it about it that made you take that leap of faith on your side as well?

Speaker 2: 3:07

I think I was curious for something different. I think it's really unique to have a business that gives you the flexibility to run it as if it's your own company, but also it already has some history, where it's got that springboard and attention already, where you can try and theorise things and you get an immediate response. Often when with founding new brands, you have a lot of emotion into thinking you're solving a pain and then you have to be very patient to wait for feedback. That first customer or getting those first ten customers are really difficult. When I joined it we had five years.

Speaker 2: 3:39

It was transitioning from apparel to jewellery and that's one of the main reasons I was really interested in it, because it was something a bit different and redefining what the brand is and moving from a sector is not something you can often do in fashion, let alone any market. Really, it's quite difficult to do so. Reposition yourselves as a from a rag trade and as an apparel brand through to men's jewellery That was something I thought was really interesting. Terrifying, but really interesting to see you deep into.

Speaker 1: 4:07

And since then it's just kept on growing, so it must have been a good decision.

Speaker 2: 4:11

Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, the judge of a market success is how many competitors you have. And when we first started your Google men's jewellery and you wouldn't find many silver and gold brands. I think also it can be a bit interesting because silver and gold is a material as well as a colour. So you can have silver jewellery but it can be made from a ton of different materials and it can look and be priced in different ways.

Speaker 2: 4:34

And everyone's been abroad and bought a silver ring and it's turned their finger green, or a necklace and it's broke within a day. Everyone's bought that kind of heirloom or costume jewellery as a thing to remember a holiday. And I think again, our judge of that is how many competitors are. And I think back five or six years ago when you googled it, there were mainly retailers like Selfridges and ASOS that were selling other brands. Now there are dozens of jewellery brands in the UK alone. So I think that shift to an accessory not being just part of an outfit it can now be the defining part of an outfit for a man. I think women have been accessorising long before men. I think that move in the last half a decade or so has been massive And keep people like Harry Styles and Pharrell using these statement pieces to re-communicate how they talk about their selves, their feelings, their emotions. I think that's a key thing now for men and all genders as well, but specifically the shift in the way males wear accessories is the main focus now.

Speaker 1: 5:40

Yeah, you've been at the start of that wave and really seeing that market open up. Now you see so many other competitors in the field. Does that worry you a little bit or is it actually just a?

Speaker 2: 5:51

question for men. You'd think it would. But I actually quite like it because we did a pop-up shop, weirdly in the middle of Covid which is a distant memory When we found people who come into the door. Our biggest barrier of selling to people were people that said I want to buy a piece of jewellery but I don't know my ring size, or I've never had a piece of jewellery because they don't get the value. Someone who already wears a competitor, or they've already previously bought that holiday jewellery, or they're in a market in London and they've bought a piece of jewellery. They're easier because they see the value. They've already associated the value against an accessory, so they're actually easier. And myself included, my jewellery cabinet is not just surge. It's lots of different brands. It's different markets and experience Excuse me it's different markets when I've been abroad. So I think that's great. I think it shouldn't be. Not everyone's t-shirt in their wardrobe is owned by one brand. I think that's part of it. It's beautiful to have lots of different brands.

Speaker 1: 6:50

It's very, very true. So let's talk about this phenomenal growth rate. So, from 2021 to 2022, you saw a revenue increase by about 20% and you're planning predicting sorry, should I say 60% increase in revenue for this financial year. So how have you managed to make that leap and talk us through that a little bit.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Yeah, absolutely. I think in 2021 and 2022, we were off the back of COVID, so we as a business struggled a lot from a stock perspective. It takes us about 60 days to order and get stock in and get it all ready and get it all marked And what we found was we could never keep one skew, or every skew that we offered on the website, in stock for that 60 day period. So we'd have these little blackout moments where we'd be like was that revenue we have lost? Is that extra revenue? We're kind of doing it quite manually And we could have up to 300 products which could have five skews. We talked to nearly a thousand skews. So we'd have this very manual process of trying to manage the right amount of stock and understanding what we need to go heavy into and what we don't.

Speaker 2: 7:55

And whilst the market was still growing, we were launching 30 piece collections and we were just trying to guess months in advance what we think would sell, and that's not different to any other fashion brand. But it was really difficult in an emerging market, especially with men still learning what it is to value jewelry. And I think the biggest shift for us was oddly, off the back of COVID, a lot of wholesalers pulled back and they were very cautious about stocking brands because they really wanted to focus on the Nike's and the car hearts and the brands that generated revenue for them. So, as a result, all these orders that we thought we'd get we didn't get. So we thought, oh, we've got a lot of stock left over. But that enabled us to have that first ever period where we never had a blackout in skews And then we had our biggest revenue days and just it just gave us the opportunity to go direct.

Speaker 2: 8:42

So then we started refining our direct offering getting more competitive with shipping, getting better with our speed, our rate of getting getting better with our rate of shipping time and just moving it forward. And that helped us facilitate that growth in the UK. And then the larger percent is the 60% for this trading year. That's globally And for us at the moment is what we've kind of done in the UK, by no means a box tick. We've got a pretty good idea of what we're doing. Our goal now is to do that in America and then in Europe and then in Australia and Asia. So we're moving now into local territories, setting up entities in the local area and doing what we've done in the UK, just everywhere now.

Speaker 1: 9:20

Incredible. So a lot on the current to do list, I suppose. With moving to the States, Let's just break this down a little bit. So when you're talking about this particular, this 21-22 period, when you were really starting to grow, what was the kind of one thing that you can put your finger down on for making that success happen? Is there one particular thing? I realize this is an emerging kind of market, new territories and getting that inventory right But was there one defining moment when you were like, oh okay, yeah, we're about to hit some big numbers?

Speaker 2: 9:56

I think whilst it's a movement, so we're just kind of at the mercy of the wind and the tide I think the biggest defining thing for surge is the effort we put into the design And I'm not the design team. I just sell the great stuff that they do or try and get the customers to want to love it as much as we do. But there's three people in the design team It's Oli, it's Catherine and Alicia, and the people in the design team the way that they design things and that level of effort they put in to make it as original as possible and have everything that has a theme. I don't see many accessory brands putting the same level of effort into accessories, because when a larger fashion brand makes a collection, they will do everything from accessories to footwear to then the main skews like hoodies, tees and trousers that will just sell the best. We put the same level of effort in as if it's a runway show on jewelry.

Speaker 2: 10:49

So I think customers are shocked when they see the level of detail and originality that goes into each skew. So I think that's a big defining moment for us. It's very easy to sell our product because it's so amazing and the creative aspect we put into communicating that through our campaign shoots and the effort we put into it. We've had feedback from all of them. campaign shoots which are like our big photo shoots and big video shoots people are on them, models are on them, the team behind them are there and they're like. People don't do this, like you know, in jewelry. So we're just we really we're taking that high fashion approach and putting it into everyday jewelry And I think that's a major consideration of kind of how we've been up to have the growth and have the attention that we've got.

Speaker 1: 11:33

Because I was just about to say it's all well and good creating something absolutely stunning and beautiful, but if you can't market that out to your customers and get that message across, then it's completely redundant. And what's your kind of split between B2B and D2C? roughly now, then, are you focusing mostly on that D2C market and I'm getting closer to those customers through campaigns?

Speaker 2: 11:53

Yeah, absolutely. I think Covid obviously created some question marks for everyone, so there was a bit of a pullback With. That enabled us in terms of have the growth that we did, but we're noticing as well that were. I think we're economically looking at a recession, so there are some, there's some uncertainty in the B2B sector. I think we're going back to that focus of let's focus on what works and most of the most of the Most of the Retail as we work with we are the top or in the top One or two brands that work with us. So generally we're seen as a pretty good brand, but if you put the jewelry revenue against hoodies or shoes with the dwarf, so whilst we might be at the top of our department and the budget gets cut from jewelry because it's still an emerging sector for retailers, so I think off the.

Speaker 2: 12:42

To go back to your original question, i think At the moment for surge, we aim and strive for, in terms of actual units, a 50-50 split, but realistically it's more 70% D2C.

Speaker 2: 12:54

I'm actually happy to lean more into that. At the moment, not only is the margin higher, but also it allows us to talk to our customer and get more feedback a lot quicker and there's a bit. But given that Fashions forward order and we'll have a buyer by six months in advance, it will hit the shelves in eight months or nine months potentially, and then we won't know really until the following buyer if they're going to increase or decrease. So there's a huge disconnect. We're just speaking to one or two people, we don't really know too much, and they're only buying off of data. So the D2C and the pop-ups that we do allow us to just really visualize the customer and understand what they like, what they dislike, and we can steer it towards that. I think that also helps us then be better and smarter and also as well, but we can provide information that I think buyers don't see as well.

Speaker 1: 13:38

Yeah, that's a really good point. Actually having that combination of the two can they can help each other out, is that? are there any clever technologies, either in digital marketing or in data gathering in terms of CRM programs, that you're using in order to, like, really get under the skin of that customer of yours? How are you, now you're expanding into DTC and that you know that that's going to be really important How are you making sure that you understand who your customer is?

Speaker 2: 14:04

Yeah, so our website's built on Shopify and Shopify, i find, is the gold standard free commerce. There are lots of different ones you can use. Think we moved from WordPress many years ago, but the tech stack at the moment for us is just that's what saves us. I think that's what helps us push to the power of what would be a bigger team. I think if you have the right tech stack around you, you can be a team of 12, but only really need to be physically a team of four or five. There's a lot of automation that you can have. So, yeah, i think Shopify is huge for us And then we have I was trying to find the best software that is at that moment that is champion in that specific channel.

Speaker 2: 14:41

So we use Klavia for email and, obviously, being X agency, i've got a really good look into Facebook and Google. We also have agencies that support us but, being the other side of the fence previously, we can have a really unique conversation and relationship with them because I can understand what it's not working, understand what it is and what that means. So, yeah, i think for us it's about finding the best software or partner in the specific channel And then that just it's a bit of a frog kissing exercise sometimes, because Klavia and Shopify aren't our first of the partners we've had. So I think it's about finding the right partners and then they will support your invisibility and understanding what works.

Speaker 1: 15:24

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Speaker 2: 16:08

Absolutely. I think we're living in it. At the moment. We are two biggest revenue streams, which won't be any different to most e-commerce fashion brands as Facebook and Google so Meta and Google And every time we have a bit of profit, we chop it up and we taste and we try with Pinterest or TikTok or Reddit, snapchat or Twitter. So every time we have that fun fund or we go out of home and we do a lot of tube advertising, so we'll always do that fun fund and just taste and try something. So that's always budgeted in, that's always something. So that kind of don't even see them as mistakes, we just see them as fun, not in a manner of anything other than like either win or you learn with those, and we kind of already write it off as a loss, and then we just need to find something like well, now finding something that absolutely didn't work is great, because you just don't do that again, and that narrows down the things, the question marks, to yeses or noes. So, yeah, i think we still have a way to go on those ancillary channels like Pinterest and Reddit and TikTok And I think, given the platforms required, different types of content as well. That's something that, as a business.

Speaker 2: 17:15

Now we're moving from being a small to medium business.

Speaker 2: 17:19

We struggled to pivot as quick as we used to and jump on trends, and there's a little bit more red tape that's in the business now for us to move quick and lean.

Speaker 2: 17:27

I really love seeing how chaotic and challenging TikTok can be and rewarding it can be, for you can start up a six figure business within a couple of months, literally out of your bedroom, and it's amazing to see, and it's really interesting to see the next phase of businesses that are starting through communities and these moments and these marketing moments, all these things that capture and garner attention And, i think, brands, including ourselves, and when Bono means the biggest brand, how you are stripping back that red tape or opening up a part of the business that is outside of the day to day of the business, so they can just be lean and mean.

Speaker 2: 18:06

I think that is something that we still are actively working on And I don't think you're ever gonna complete it, because the minute you think you've nailed the market, the market's moved, so it's like pin in a tail you never finish it. But I think at the moment, with the latest generation and the way they consume attention, i think that's something that we're still actively trying to improve on, because we definitely haven't hit the mark on that yet.

Speaker 1: 18:27

Yeah, how are you finding TikTok as a platform at the minute? Different companies we speak to Some are trying it, some aren't, some are throwing everything at it, some are terrified of it. Where's your stance there?

Speaker 2: 18:39

Everywhere in between of that, so I think, the biggest for us. We were one of the first brands to test the shipping methods and originally on their beta program for advertising, so we've been there from the start. That doesn't mean that we have the largest level of success there. It's not backbone of our strategy by any means. I think we can be doing more. We can be doing more everywhere.

Speaker 2: 19:00

So that's not just specifically on TikTok, but I think the evergreen content and how you store retail is something that surges a business struggles to do, and me personally as well. I'm a consumer of it as well. But I think I can be being a consumer and being a user of TikTok and also then having a brand on TikTok. It's different and I think that requires a different brain And I want to admit to say that I'm old yet but it gets to the point sometimes where you think these if you can be very these trends move incredibly fast now and sometimes they would linger in years before, whether it be a moment that we're talking about. And then in TikTok I find that there are multiple trends will happen and die within a day, and then it requires a level of attention to always focus on that.

Speaker 1: 19:45

Yeah, well, they say there's that meme that's going around on Instagram just sees all the reels like well, like two weeks after TikTok or something, and it's just that kind of disconnect And yeah, which I find really fascinating, and just that speed of having to keep up on top of it for brands unless you've got a content marketing team ginormous size or on you know like A source or something, how you even keep up with those trends. I suppose it's the case of choosing the right ones that work for you and throwing everything up at that. It's a minefield at the minute and I applaud anyone that's trying at the moment.

Speaker 2: 20:19

Yeah, and also on that I think as well is effort doesn't always equal success as well. I've also seen a bit of an anti-establishment movement where people don't put too much effort into it. They're like it's not all, you're trying too hard, like it needs to be natural and authentic, but not also. But also look like you're not putting effort and serious resource into it. I remember at the start, when TikTok first started doing ads, they actually disabled comments because people were trying to boycott ads. They were saying negative things in the comments of the ads to stop brands advertising. So for a while you could comment on an ad. That's changed now. So I think that was just a bit of a we like it to be normal. Can we just leave it Like we like it, untouched from an advertising perspective, which is on the extent you can agree with. But ultimately, attention equals advertisers. That's the game we play.

Speaker 1: 21:03

So, tiktok aside, what are the other challenges that are on your list at the moment?

Speaker 2: 21:06

I think at the moment we're now we've expanded into America and we have plans to do the same in Europe We're having the same problem we had in 2020 and 2021, which is that blackout of skews, because when the business, when we didn't have our US entity and shipped domestically because we now have a warehouse in New Jersey to offer three, four-day shipping anywhere in the US and Canada previously it could have been anywhere up to 10 or 15-day shipping and you'd have to pay customs and it would be more expensive. Since we've moved that over, the growth has been exponential, but what it also means is the number of skews that you would have previously ordered doesn't cover what is now the success. So we're back to that original problem, but in multiple territories, of now understanding what success looks like and how we scale, but also have it in the right way, and that's where software and a certain tech stack really helps us. So having understanding inventory analysis and having dedicated merchandisers in the team to understand what that means, because if you do have upwards of 800 to a thousand skews in multiple countries, if you order too much, that forces you to go larger and to mark down, and the reason why it's really important for Surge as a brand is we only really go into markdown or a sale once a year, so we're not a markdown driven business.

Speaker 2: 22:25

So our biggest thing is to make sure that we have just amount of stock to facilitate growth, but not too much where we are worried about locking up cash and having to then discontinue it in channels and selling it off cheaper to devalue the brand. Our goal is to be premium but also affordable, so that means you can't just have that red banner up all the time, and as a business we've transitioned away from that and it's taken a few years to do. but luckily, with the change from apparel to jewelry, we've been quite lucky in that. with a new change of conversation you can then have a new feeling as the egg to the brand, so that's something that we're very fortunate to have.

Speaker 1: 23:01

Am I right in thinking you're using inventory plan at the minute to overcome a lot of these hurdles? Did you say that you had your own Excel spreadsheet beforehand?

Speaker 2: 23:08

Yeah, i'm not proud of it, but it worked. But it was. Yeah, we used to export every skew and then we'd manually add in what the sell through was across a 60 day period with stock and there would be a skew line by line. So if rings had six sizes, there'd be a parent skew sell through but then or a parent variable and then also the individual child skews next to it. Understanding sizes with necklaces is pretty easy, because what you sell is what you sell if it's one size.

Speaker 2: 23:35

But yeah, rings were like an absolute pain and if you didn't complete it within 48 hours, the data was out of date because obviously sales would happen. So it would be an export at the end of the day and we'd have to do it just overnight. But then as America was growing, it was growing increasingly, becoming more and more out of date. So we just had to do it as quick as possible, very early in the morning or very late at night, and hope that when we wake up we haven't had too much of a spend. So, yeah, it was. It was tough. Alicia in the business used to send me and then she's like please get it done before I wake up in the morning. So we had to. We had to sprint it out over evenings and weekends.

Speaker 1: 24:14

Nobody wants a business with a business mentality. That's kind of like where you are saying, oh please, nobody have bought anything overnight. Yeah, exactly, so what we started doing is.

Speaker 2: 24:24

Obviously we could never stop that. So, whatever we would do, we'd then add a percentage on top to just cover those sell-through. Because it gets tricky as well, because as our product let's say it takes 60 days or eight weeks to arrive we launch a new collection every three months. By the time we've launched a new collection we need to be thinking about the next collection. But we then need to be reordering before it's even sold. Some of it's a big guess as well.

Speaker 2: 24:46

So inventory planner helps us understand it at product level. So a 55 pound ring, that's silver with no gem. We can kind of look at the metadata and go we know that 55 pound rings or 55 pound band work. Is there a 55 pound band in this new collection? there's a high chance it's going to place here. Then we individually look at the best seller and the worst seller and why. And we? there is still a bit of manual thinking. I don't believe one piece of kit can ever just do your job for you. It needs a bit of context and a bit of human love. But that helps us, helps me, zero in and understand straight away what we're not doing. And then we have to tweak and play with what we, what we can do, but it's been a. It's definitely been a lifesaver. I don't need to be. I don't think I can do those manual spreadsheets in two time zones because I just wouldn't sleep.

Speaker 1: 25:28

That does not sound fun at all and I guess what you said, what you hinted about earlier, you know potential recession coming next year. so is this the kind of human love element so you kind of need to be like right, so what? how is our customer going to behave? this is are they going to buy a ring if times are tough to like as a treat, or they not? and what is that kind of all the stuff that's going on in your head at the moment when you look at the brand going forward?

Speaker 2: 25:53

Absolutely, i think the jury is a luxury. It's not a necessity. Most fashion is a luxury, but ultimately you're not going to walk around with a necklace and not a pair of shoes. You're going to focus on things in your essential wardrobe that are required. However, i think for us at the moment, because we use sterling silver and gold, that holds its value as well.

Speaker 2: 26:13

So one of the things that we're toying with launching well, we've got it planned out, we just need to figure out if it's happening this year or next year is a buyback scheme where, if you do have old surge or indeed hallmarked goods, we'll take it back and we can melt it down and we'll give you a credit against the website. It allows you to trade in your existing surge or just silver or gold jewelry in general that you might have, and then it enables you to. There's a huge sustainable element to it which, like you're getting silver and gold off the streets, but also silver and gold is a commodity. It goes up 11% every year and has done for a while. That's a legitimate way of recycling goods.

Speaker 2: 26:50

You can't recycle a t-shirt in that manner and go to a store in five years and go. Can I give you this t-shirt back and you can do something with it. There is a small loss of the product and I won't begin to. I'm not a smelter, i'm not a manufacturer, i'm beginning to pretend to be what it is. So there's a large amount of value in getting that back and that helps hugely of giving that back to us and also we can do a lot with that. So that's really good for us and the goal is, when we build up that amount of silver in local territories, we work with local manufacturers and then get that back out. Once the business is in the territory, we can keep that revenue within the actual territory, which is really positive for us. We want to have a large network, domestically as well as internationally, and that's really key for us to scale globally.

Speaker 1: 27:35

Fantastic. So let's round up the conversation by talking about new technologies that you're potentially looking at to help drive this 60% growth and beyond into next year and maybe even five to ten years. What's out there? You mentioned automation earlier. Are you doing anything in the AI space? What's going on there?

Speaker 2: 27:54

Yes, chat, gpt I guess I think you mentioned a thousand times a minute. It's interesting. Again, i go back to the same thing with inventory panorites. It's not a press play and it will replace people. It still requires that human context, but I think AI is really interesting mid-journey.

Speaker 2: 28:12

It's very interesting for us in terms of understanding AI based asset creation and briefing. That's really, really interesting to us. We've got lots of different concepts and ideas that we want to theorise in terms of how we can involve the community, because with this new wave of AI, there are a wealth of new content. Correct, because people that grow up with AI, they instantly become interested in it very early. Therefore, they become experts in it very quickly. The next generation of entrepreneurs and businesses that create value through AI. They're the people that we want to be speaking to. These creators, digital artists, stuff like that, these developers that really help communicate a story through a different medium. It's more than just a TikTok video. It's more than just a video on Instagram or a picture on Instagram. It's a true experience. So that's very interesting for us.

Speaker 2: 29:06

Again, we've made less than zero progress on it, but it's something for us to help us. I think that's the next wave of understanding it. But then, in the same anchor to that, we are a physical business. We're a physical product sold digitally. So I think, with this massive push towards digital understanding what's made by humans, what's made by AI, i think there'll be a huge pullback to a physical product and I still think the phrase is worth this weight in gold. That still holds true, i think, in store, picking up the product, feeling the way, having a value against the way that still has huge ring, against jewelry and accessories, so I think that is also a big factor for us. So we might even be swinging back to physical locations and getting products, getting products on people's fingers, but doing it in a digital manner. I think having that AI as part of the journey is really crucial to understanding how the customer is going to operate and shop in the future.

Speaker 1: 30:02

It's so true I hate the term like emerging market for this, but in terms of some men out there that haven't touched jewelry before, getting a ring literally on their finger might be like oh actually, this looks quite nice on me and that converts that sale. So having those pop-ups that you're famous for, along with more digital means, could be something that you're working on in the future.

Speaker 2: 30:23

Yeah, and I think by ways of an experience as well, there's a lot of different gamified ways where you kind of have a I think vending machines and actually fast food joints did it really well you've got these massive big iPad and you click a button and it feels like you're building your own drink and ultimately it's seven outputs and you feel like you're creating your own thing and you feel invested into mixing this drink with all the different flavours of Pepsi and Coke and Fanta and ultimately it's just picking what you would see normally when you're shopping at a fast food restaurant. But I think that kind of experience where people feel like that they've had a role in what they're building. We've toyed with ideas of like a, you know, almost like a digital printer. You could 3D print as well. Now there's lots. You can 3D print with silver and gold fully in too. So there's lots of opportunities of showing people the manufacturing process in person. The idea of going to buy something in store and coming back in three hours and it being printed in front of you or being engraved or created in front of you that's an amazing experience.

Speaker 2: 31:19

I don't think people have cracked that yet. You get customisation and you get, you know, buy a t-shirt and you can get it, or buy a hoodie and get it distressed, or you can paint on it like layer and then kind of But actually pure creation from an idea, would go there with an idea and come back later and it's done. That could be an interesting moment because I think also the way people going back to user habits, i think people inherently there's always a story with jewelry and the more you wear a jewelry piece, there gets nicks. Like my first ever jewelry piece was my wedding ring and then after I wore that, i was like, yeah, i worked for the jewelry brand for two years and didn't wear rings. Then I got married and I was like, oh, okay, this work and then now I have almost, almost wear eight or 10 rings exclusively. So I think once you understand it, then it's just a slipstream of yeah, this makes me feel good, it's like armor for me, it's a confidence builder and people love that stuff. It helps them massively.

Speaker 1: 32:14

Well, Sammy, at the end of our conversation, before I let you go, I need you to give us your top tip for e-commerce growth and scale that you can share with our audience.

Speaker 2: 32:22

I think the biggest thing that you can do as a brand that would either be starting out or scaling, is the utilization of first party data. So, with the increase of competitors and landscape, Meta and Google is not getting in cheaper and each other platforms are great for a bit, but when they grow they get expensive as well. I think owning first party data, so opted in emails and SMSes, help people, help you. Owning emails and mobile numbers for SMS campaigns help you communicate to the customer in a more informal manner and you pay a flat fee to communicate to them. So I think that's massive and that stops you spending or the currently when you're trying to acquire attention.

Speaker 1: 33:06

That is a great tip, sammy. It's been so great speaking to you today. Thank you so so much for your time and for being on the podcast with us. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much to our audience as well. That was such an interesting conversation. I think my favorite takeaway from that chat was the fund fund for technology and having that budgeted in and making it kind of a very fail-fast approach. Yes, some really good tips there, but that was definitely my favorite.

Speaker 1: 33:32

Make sure you head over to the usual podcast platforms to listen to previous episodes of the Lightning 50 podcast, and do not forget Furniture Box, natural Baby Shower and Beyond Retailer are just a few of the ambitious retailers who have integrated PeopleVox Warehouse Management System to take their e-commerce stack to the next level With Lightning, fast Pick and Pack workflows, easy user training and 360-degree transparency into your warehouse operation. Anyone who has used PeopleVox will tell you that the platform is a genuine game changer. Not only does it enhance your customer experience by tightening inventory control and cutting out packing mistakes, it also boosts your efficiency and unlocks growth for your business. So if you're ready to transform your business, head over to PeopleVoxcom today.